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Commentary :: Media : UCIMC
The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: "What's the Matter with Indymedia?" Current rating: 0
27 Jul 2005
Every once in awhile, someone comes along with a hard-hitting critique of Indymedia that is right on the mark. Jennifer Whitney's piece, "What's the Matter with Indymedia?", is a must-read for those of us working to create something better, to shore up our shortcomings, and build the next evolution of the UCIMC. For those with the sticktoitiveness to read through to the end, a pleasant surprise awaits.
[From: http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/23741/]


In the last week of November 1999, a news website run entirely by volunteers was launched. "Don't hate the media; be the media" was the battle cry of hundreds of people who converged in Seattle to bring about the birth of the Independent Media Center (IMC, or Indymedia). The project promised the democratization of the media, and more: "Imperfect, insurgent, sleepless and beautiful, we directly experienced the success of the first IMC in Seattle and saw that the common dream of 'a world in which many worlds fit' is possible," wrote media activist and Seven Stories Press editor Greg Ruggiero. The idea was contagious. Almost 6 years on, there are 149 Indymedia websites in about 45 countries on 6 continents.

The newborn IMC provided the most in-depth and broad-spectrum coverage of the historic direct actions against the World Trade Organization that fall. Despite having no advertising budget, no brand recognition, no corporate sponsorship, and no celebrity reporters, it received 1.5 million hits in its first week--more than CNN got in the same time. Its innovative "open publishing" newswire meant that anyone with computer access could be a reporter. The user-friendly software allowed people to publish directly online, and since more than 450 people got IMC press passes (and scores more reported from their homes), they provided coverage of the historic protests from every block of downtown Seattle. Audio, video, photos, and articles were uploaded at a breathtaking pace. The site embraced the do-it-yourself ethic completely, meaning that there were no restrictive site managers, editors, or word-count limits. At the time, such restrictions seemed dictatorial, oppressive--counterrevolutionary, even. Now, I find them rather appealing.

The open publishing newswire, once filled with breaking stories and photographic evidence refuting government lies, now contains more spam than an old email account. On many sites, it's difficult to find original reporting among the right-wing diatribes and rants about chemtrails poisoning the atmosphere. Coverage of local protests often consists of little more than a few blurry photos of cops doing nothing in particular, without a single line of text explaining the context, the issues, or the goals of the protest. And forget about analysis or investigative reporting. They tend to be as rare on Indymedia as they are on Fox News.

This isn't to suggest that I've avoided Indymedia as a journalist, or that I disagree with its mission--neither are true. I've worked with various IMCs over the years during big protests, mostly as a reporter, and mostly secondarily to the various actions I was involved with. In 1999, I met early on with some of the founders of the first IMC, who wanted an outside perspective on what they were cooking up. In 2001, I covered the Zapatista caravan for the Chiapas, UK, and Seattle sites; later that year I worked in the IMC during the protests against the G8 summit in Genoa, taking phoned-in reports from the streets, confirming them, plotting movements on maps, and posting the news. In CancĂşn I did support work in the IMC during the 2003 WTO actions, as well as some reporting. In Miami, during the Free Trade Area of the Americas protests that same year, I reported for the short-lived paper and the website. And last summer in El Alto, Bolivia, I worked with locals on covering an important federal election.

On the anniversary of the Iraq invasion earlier this year, I was in Mexico, trying to get information about antiwar protests around the United States. I looked at IMC sites based in cities where I knew there were actions, and found nothing. Eventually, I found what I was looking for--on the BBC. The experience, unfortunately, is not uncommon. Each time I try and find news among the Indymedia drivel, I ask myself the same question: What happens when--in our attempts not to hate the media but to be it--we end up hating the media we've become?

I know I'm not alone in my frustration with IMCs. "I haven't looked at Indymedia in over a year," says the editor of a nationally distributed radical magazine. "Indymedia? It's completely irrelevant," a talented documentary filmmaker tells me. "I let the IMC use my photos but I don't ever read it," says a freelance photojournalist. More and more, independent media makers (even those who occasionally publish on or are affiliated with an IMC) don't even bother looking for news on Indymedia. And for good reason: Indymedia news "coverage" is often lifted from corporate media websites, with occasional editorial remarks added. Some IMC sites limit this type of reporting to a specific section, and there it can lead to informative discussion and criticism. But most seem to rely on it to fill column space in the newswire. This isn't making media, it's cutting and pasting--relying on so-called experts and professionals to do what you are, evidently, too lazy or busy to do yourself. The few original articles are frequently riddled with unsubstantiated claims, rumors, dubious anonymous sources, bad writing, and/or plagiarism. Rarely is anything edited--and I don't mean by the collective that runs the site. Users themselves aren't editing their own work, but instead are posting 18 blurry, almost identically bad photographs, or thesis-length uninformed opinion pieces that weren't even spell checked. Verified facts are an endangered species on Indymedia, and arguments in support of fact-checking are often met with cries of "Censorship!" To make matters worse, Indymedia articles are usually posted anonymously (and therefore unaccountably), with no way to offer feedback other than the flame-ridden fray of the comments section. If the goal of Indymedia is, as its mission statement says, "the creation of radical, accurate, and passionate tellings of the truth," we are clearly falling short.

Perhaps it's useful to ask what constitutes effective communication. By any remotely sane definition, both telling and receiving are necessary. But the burden to communicate effectively belongs to the active party--the teller--not the audience. This is as true in one-on-one settings as it is in mass media. But the Indymedia mission doesn't mention audience. Instead it's all about the creation and the telling. Maybe this is, in part, where the problem lies. With the focus placed so strongly on the "tellings of the truth," the reader/watcher/listener is left to fend for herself. And if we have so little respect or concern for our audience, what on earth are we doing working in a medium based entirely in communication?

It's also a question of intent. I want my work to contribute to social change. And I sometimes end up a perfectionist, knowing that the better my work is, the greater an impact it will have. People don't read sloppy, unedited, or disorganized stories; they don't look at bad photographs or videos. And so the potential to have an impact is greatly diminished. This isn't a philosophical question about whether trees make sounds when falling in forests. Simply put, an unread article changes nothing.

And if we change nothing, not only have we failed in our responsibility to our audience, we have failed our subject as well. If I'm writing about a social movement, I am accountable to the people who trust me with their stories. I want my article to help them, not hurt them. When I'm writing about a particular issue, I want to inform and inspire others to get involved in learning more and maybe working on that issue also. Making media is a bit like scattering seeds, in that we never know where our work will end up--if it will germinate, take root, and spread; if it will survive fire or drought; if others will notice and propagate it. We should put out the hardiest and healthiest seeds that we can, so the information stored within will have a better chance at survival.

While all IMC collectives across the global network are individual and autonomous, there are certain commonalities that hold them together. The website layout and navigation tends to be quite similar, the process of uploading material tends to work the same way, and most use the same software. There are a few that stand out in various ways--some have more intensive editing, a few publish newspapers or have radio stations, and some are deeply linked to the communities they serve. Most people I've spoken with agree that the Portland, Oregon, site stands out a lot. Portland is known worldwide for getting technical resources and website security to other collectives in the network. In addition to their own site, they also generously host the US national site. And they have other policies that set them apart as well--but in quite different ways.

In many IMC collectives, the editing vs. free speech dichotomy is argued as hotly as abortion is debated by members of congregations and Congress. It's a debate that I imagine any group with open publishing would have to face. Many sites have explicit policies about what sorts of material will remain visible on their sites. Chicago has a policy of editing or hiding posts that are "racist, sexist, homophobic, or that clearly fly in the face of our mission to serve as a space for the exchange of news, dialogue and opinion that advances economic and social justice. Posts that serve as commercials for for-profit companies will be removed." They then go on to explain the reason for this: Right-wing and fascist organizations have a history of targeting Indymedia sites, despite having plenty of their own forums in which to post. Chicago's policy is clear, and they seem to stick to it. And they are not an exception--it's quite common across the network to hide such posts rapidly. (Hidden posts do not appear in the newswire but are available for the curious through a link.)

Portland has a similar policy in writing, but it sometimes seems more a formality than a reflection of practices. In the 1980s the city was a mecca for fascists and neonazis who beat an Ethiopian immigrant to death in 1988, and were subsequently driven out of town or underground. When I lived there in 2001, they briefly reemerged, and began using the Indymedia site to post recruitment messages for Volksfront--a white-supremacist, neonazi organization--as well as announcements of an upcoming meeting and concert featuring White Aryan Resistance leader Tom Metzger. Several antifascist organizers contacted the editorial group in an effort to have the posts hidden. Our requests were denied; we were told that we were undermining free speech by requesting censorship, and were invited to post messages in response to the fascists' recruitment efforts. To us, this was inadequate. Let the ACLU protect neonazis' free speech rights--they were using a community resource to spread their hate-based propaganda, and we wanted it stopped immediately.

Though that level of fascist material has not been seen on the site recently, it is unclear if this is due to the nazis going back underground or due to a policy shift at Portland Indymedia. To my knowledge, there hasn't been anything like the Volksfront postings; however, in the last 13 months, the Portland IMC has hosted at least 7 articles by or in support of antisemitic cult leader Lyndon LaRouche, the most recent from April of this year. This, combined with the frequency of conspiracy theories about 9/11, mixed in with the occasional nostalgic ode to Kurt Cobain or oddball spoof on the fundamentalist-Rapturist Left Behind book series, seriously undermines the Portland site's usefulness.

Another Portland anomaly that detracts from its utility is the reorganization of links to other cities' Indymedia sites. Whereas most Indymedia sites list the links alphabetically by continent and country, Portland has come up with some geography- and logic-defying categories that make it absurdly difficult to find things. According to their creative cartography, St. Louis is in the "Mississippi Delta," despite the fact that the actual delta is confined to the southernmost tip of Louisiana, and the nearest Indymedia site is based over 80 miles away in New Orleans. The "Great North Woods" is not where my intuition tells me to look for New York City, and inexplicably, Tijuana is listed not with Mexico, but with the "South West" area of "Turtle Island"-- described by Portland Indymedia as an indigenous term for North America. San Francisco is also in the southwest. But not Arizona. If you click on "why this cities list," you'll find an explanation of the rationale behind the restructuring process (capitalization is in the original): "The cities list has been broken up heavily to make it easier to know where a particular imc is in the world.... The basic idea was to make the categories more defining of an area and ultimately align indymedias that would be working through similar regional issues, instead of continuing the socio-political lines that have always defined the cities list." Later on, the (anonymous) authors proudly state that they spent 15 hours working on the list. Fifteen hours, apparently without consulting a map.

There are certain etiquettes established by the very nature of Indymedia. Because so much of the work is online, collectives are able to network with other groups all across the planet, wherever there are internet connections and, when necessary, translators. While this is obviously a great strength, it can also be one of the most debilitating weaknesses, as people often act differently online than when they are face-to-face.

Ana Nogueira, who works with US Indymedia, grew weary of this dynamic. "After four years of working on this stuff I got really frustrated and burnt out by the lack of accountability. The spontaneity of the IMC could be held back by some stranger blocking a proposal from somewhere, anonymously. I originally proposed [the creation of] the US site [in order to allow the Global site to be more balanced, and less US-centric] two years ago, and it was blocked and blocked. You have to be really determined to see something through; you can't be too sensitive. People can be really curt and obnoxious on email, because they don't have to see you in person."

This may be a factor in some tensions in Mexico City between the IMC collective and other radical independent media groups. The Mexico City IMC has a policy of having meetings only online, never face-to-face. And they have acted in ways that seem territorial, even competitive, with another local media collective, Informative Action in Resistance (AIRE, in its Spanish acronym), that has worked closely with Indymedia centers in Monterrey, CancĂşn, and Guadalajara during actions. AIRE has received unsigned nasty emails from Indymedia Mexico City, in one case accusing AIRE of being "pseudo-activists playing with electronic toys."

"It's no good launching attacks on each other and using the tools of the right wing when we're trying to make a new form of communication," says MarĂ­a MartĂ­nez of AIRE. "There are so many independent radio projects and media projects in this huge city. We want to work with everybody, but not when they attack us like this." Earlier this year, AIRE sent some of its members to Brazil for the World Social Forum, where they met with some Brazil IMC folks. When word got back to Mexico City Indymedia, they were angry, apparently claiming that AIRE had no right to connect with the Indymedia network. This kind of territorial behavior can be more destructive than any of the outside forces and challenges we face. This is particularly true in the monstropolis of Mexico City, where radical organizations are already atomized due to geography and time constraints, and where sharing resources isn't only philosophically principled, but absolutely essential.

Another challenge inherent in the Indymedia form is that participation, as well as passive consumption, requires not only patience and a thick skin, but also internet access. Certain local groups have breached the digital divide, even if only for a brief spell. Seattle set a strong precedent during the week of the WTO protests by printing 2,000 copies of the daily paper The Blind Spot and distributing them on the streets during the actions. The paper was also available online, and was downloaded in Brussels, where 8,000 more copies were distributed. The Seattle IMC also streamed a radio broadcast that was picked up by Radio Havana and broadcast across Cuba. Additionally, they produced a nightly program that ran on public access television. Many other IMCs have followed suit during actions; what's more challenging is maintaining a presence when there isn't the momentum, surge of volunteers, and extra cash flow that an action can bring.

And cash flow is a huge issue. Many collectives, from London to Bolivia, have produced short-lived newspapers. But print is not cheap, and fundraising isn't one of the sexier parts of independent journalism. We're always short on money, and then when we do have any, it tends to come with controversy. "We have a larger budget than most," says John Tarleton of The Indypendent, the New York City IMC newspaper. "We've had a paid staff for the last few years, so it has been possible for us to do more. We weren't the first newspaper to take advertisements, but it was a really controversial decision. People often have a fear that money will corrupt everything, and that's certainly something to be mindful of, but having no money is also really debilitating."

Because Indymedia is such a broad and diffuse network, decision making across the planet can be tediously slow and sometimes results in painful and frustrating situations. A few years ago, the Ford Foundation awarded Indymedia a grant of $50,000 to fund a global Indymedia conference. But there were some in the network who didn't want to accept the corporate money, and ultimately the grant had to be declined.

There's also the very real factor of laziness. It's a lot easier to block decisions than to resolve a conflict, find a compromise, let go of our precious ideologies and opinions in favor of the group's effectiveness, and move the fuck forward. It's much easier to critique new ideas than to take on a task and complete it on a deadline. Anyone who's done radical organizing or independent media has almost certainly dealt with people who attach themselves to already existing projects or works in progress, contribute nothing themselves, and then exercise a veto over anything that comes up. If our goal is to make powerful, transformative, effective media, we have to learn to neutralize these problem people--even by voting them out of the collective, if necessary. Our effectiveness and sustainability depend on resolving such conflicts and forging ahead. As Luis GĂłmez of the Narco News website says, "A good journalist doesn't create problems, but rather, solves them." And sometimes Indymedia just seems to lack enough good journalists.

Perhaps this has something to do with the word journalist. After all, one of the points of Indymedia is to show that anyone can be a journalist, that anyone can tell a story, and that anyone can create media. But is that really true? Sure, digital video and still cameras get cheaper and easier to use all the time. And with the widespread availability of the internet, more Americans than ever are writing. But ease of use does not equal quality product. I don't mean that every comment on every article should be carefully crafted and edited (although I do believe that every computer does have, somewhere within its hard drive, some form of spellchecking software). And I don't mean that an article shouldn't be published if it doesn't have a gripping lead, an explicit nut graf, and a zinger of an ending, or if it doesn't conform to AP pyramid style. It isn't the lack of journalistic style or convention that irks me. It's the lack of journalistic principles, and the laziness. People seem to forget that writing and photography are skills that people develop over many years. They are not unattainable, they are not rocket science--but it's the worst sort of arrogance to think that your very first article, unedited, should make it to the front page. And it's laziness that keeps people perpetually posting without ever making an effort to develop their skills.

New York Indymedia is one collective that teaches people to become good journalists. "We've had lots of community reporting workshops," says Tarleton, "and people have come in off the street with little or no experience, but burning with a story they want to tell. Sometimes it takes them several months to write their first story, but they stick it out. We do a lot of skill sharing--people who want to communicate their ideas can get better at it. Anyone who sticks it out for six months or so can be writing regular news stories. The bottom line is that articles have to be well-written, accurate, fairly nonrhetorical, and convey radical ideas through quality writing and research. If half are good and half are shit, the crappy stories discredit everything else."

The Indypendent got a lot of criticism for its rigorous selection and editing process, with many people believing that the paper should publish any submission it receives. But as Tarleton says, "We're not doing the paper to boost the ego of our writers. It's for our readers-- to give them the best possible information within our limited ability and resources."

Some (often anonymous) folks tend to accuse independent journalists of having "sold out" if we publish in corporate outlets, make money as journalists, take ads in our publications, or demand high quality or even rewrites of submissions. But that means media in which talent and skill are punished, mediocrity rules, and we all hold hands and congratulate each other for "telling it like it is," even when few can understand the telling. Is that really the kind of media we want?

This sort of self-congratulatory, self-important attitude alienates almost everyone outside of the proverbial "activist ghetto," (and plenty of us inside it, too). It manifests itself not only in the style and phrasing of reporters' posts, but also in the very nature of what gets reported on IMCs. Direct actions make up an overwhelming amount of the content, sometimes to the exclusion of almost everything else. But if most of us think of Indymedia as being useful only for mass actions--or worse, our own private way of getting updates on what our friends are doing halfway around the planet--it may never grow to be much more than that.

Some Indymedia sites have proven to be valuable community resources way beyond the activist scene, simply by being in the right place at the right time. According to Joshua Breitbart of Global Indymedia, "What we saw in Argentina in 2002 and New York after September 11 was that people decided to make Indymedia a community possession. When these unplanned conflicts came to the community, the IMC was ready and able to contain a huge increase in activity in a way that most organizations can't. What do you do when 50 people show up at your office and want something to do? In New York we gave them newspapers to distribute. What do you do when your whole government melts and you have to find your own ways of making decisions about city services and having meetings? Well, an open publishing newswire like Argentina's IMC comes in pretty handy." In such instances, Indymedia became a community service almost as essential as trash collection, sewage treatment, and medical services. People depended on it during crises, and used it effectively as an organizing tool and information source. But we shouldn't have to wait for an act of terrorism or a government meltdown to spur us into action. We all, at least in the US, have access to that same resource--and yet we vastly under-utilize it.

The blame for this is diffuse--I am complicit by not volunteering with IMCs over longer periods of time, by getting frustrated and walking away from disagreements rather than sticking it out and working toward resolutions, and by not publishing my work on the websites all that often. The blame also lies on all of us who have gotten sick of Indymedia and just stopped using it rather than trying to change it, or, for those of us who are less patient, starting something new.

"Indymedia's biggest problem is that it is unique," says Breitbart. "People want it to solve every problem, to be all things to all people, and it just can't do everything. Some of the practices and tools that we've developed can be taken out and put into other struggles and communities where they can gain new relevance--be experimented on in new ways. We should be thinking about how to make it no longer unique, so it's not so valuable, because we have other independent media available."

I want to challenge independent media makers of all sorts, from the folks who volunteer most of their free time to keep the Indymedia sites and collectives up and running, to the people posting angry 3:00 am rants against union organizers and engaging in endless flame wars. I hope to provoke people to live up to another IMC slogan: "Make media, make trouble." I want to see our work become more accountable, better networked, more effective, and ultimately, more threatening. The best journalists are the ones who provoke, who pose a real threat to the status quo. But by tolerating low standards, forgetting our audience, and getting fetishistically bogged down in process and ideology, we succeed only in making trouble for ourselves.

Writer's note: My research was limited to IMC sites whose dominant languages are English, Spanish, Portuguese, or French. This included sites in Europe and the Americas as well as in Manila, India, Palestine, and South Africa.

*****

Exemplary IMCs, in no particular order, that make me proud to be an occasional Indymedia reporter:

Bolivia: Many collective members are involved in the day-to-day struggles of the region and have earned the trust of social movements. They broadcast a weekly radio news program in association with community-run Radio Wayna Tambo in El Alto, and provided all-day live coverage of last year's national referendum on natural gas, with around 15 reporters calling in with updates and interviews from 7 cities across the country. They also host video screenings. I went to one that was attended by about 80 people, 95 percent of whom were indigenous Aymara. Before the screening, the IMC organizers poured several pounds of coca leaf on a table--much appreciated by the audience. In addition, they are working to get donations of computers from the United States, not for their own use, but in a true act of solidarity, to give to an Aymara community on the Altiplano that requested them. http://bolivia.indymedia.org

India: An interesting site, though not frequently updated, and with a fairly low level of participation. Certainly, internet access is a luxury on the subcontinent, and only 60 percent of the over-15 population is literate. Content is almost exclusively in English, also a luxury. So though I don't think that the site accurately represents what's happening in India and who is making it happen (a near-impossible feat for any one site to do), it still has good writing, generally constructive engagement in comments sections, and information I would be hard pressed to find elsewhere. http://india.indymedia.org

Urbana-Champaign: After buying a downtown post office and transforming it into a community center, organizing successfully to prevent the local police from buying tasers, and playing an instrumental role in voting out a corrupt mayor, it's exciting to imagine what the folks at this IMC might do next. Well, actually, next up they are helping launch a community radio station that should be broadcasting in June. Their website covers local and global issues, and often features people signing what seem to be their real names to their work. Overall, they are truly embedded in their community, and provide valuable resources in terms of trainings, open debate, and lots of media. http://www. ucimc.org

Global: An excellent overview of the world's Indymedia, this site is incredibly useful, perhaps in large part because there is no open publishing--all posts are selected by editors. The editorial collective is accessible and responsive to stories pitched to them, and they are in the process of refining this process to make it even easier. With both Spanish- and English-language features teams, and with the birth of US Indymedia siphoning off a lot of US-dominant traffic, this site has truly gone global. http://www.indymedia.org

North Texas: With broad relevance to a diverse population, the site has everything a good community paper should have--news, book reviews, opinion pieces. The quality of writing is consistently high but not academic, using accessible language without lingo or mysterious acronyms. Coverage is primarily of local events, with a smattering of regional, national, and international items. It also serves as a message board, with announcements about such things as community garden plots available and biodiesel fuel for sale. http://www.ntimc.org

San Francisco Bay Area: With a carefully edited website laden with news, Enemy Combatant Radio streaming, and the year-old monthly newspaper Fault Lines, the Indybay IMC is one of the best. The site is well organized, easy to navigate, and provides broad coverage of issues. Many collective members are involved in a slew of local struggles, and it shows. http://www.indybay.org

NYC: Publishes The Indypendent, a biweekly newspaper with a circulation between 12,000 and 15,000. Its editors are highly skilled and work closely with writers. Their war coverage has been some of the best in the country, scooping several stories that even daily papers with high-salaried staffs missed. The website receives similarly attentive editing. http://nyc.indymedia.org

Ecuador: Covers a broad range of local, national, and international news, with minimal reprinting of corporate articles and very little spam or diatribe. Frequently updated and carrying excellent coverage and discussion of major issues, such as the recent ousting of President Gutierrez and the rise of neighborhood assemblies. http://ecuador.indymedia.org

Manila: Very well-written articles predominate on this site, and people actually sign their names to their work! Lots of radical analysis and less focus on protests is a welcome change. http://manila.indymedia.org

UK: With a weekly radio program on a community arts station in London, an erratically published newspaper, the Offline, and frequent video screenings, the UK (that stands for United Kollektives, by the way) team is on the case. Web stories range from action coverage to analysis to announcements and updates, with thorough coverage of national issues, and a broad smattering of international news. This site often features the lovely convention of an independently written article followed by links to corporate media coverage of the same topic, for folks wanting contrast, more info, or confirmation of facts and data. I wish others would do this more. They also encourage people to correct mistakes in the comments section, and, if notified, the editors will post the correction in the original article when appropriate. The UK site has also been, since its inception, the place to go for resources on longer term organizing of mass actions, whether they be local May Day protests, international days of action in other countries, or the upcoming G8 summit in Scotland. The writing is excellent, even on the newswire. Though its vigorous hiding of articles not meeting their editorial guidelines has been controversial in some circles, could it be that having the newswire tightly edited may push people to do better work in order to get published? I find the UK IMC site to be consistently one of the best. Though I do wish it weren't pink. http ://www.indymedia.org.uk

Argentina: In Buenos Aires, Indymedia set up shop for a while in a squatted building-formerly a bank and now a community center opened by the Cid Campeador neighborhood assembly. The association with the political birth of the squat has meant that participation among the unemployed, as well as the neighborhood, is high, although the physical site has shut down. Since the financial collapse in late 2001, participation on the website has come from a broad sector of the population, who have used it in their efforts to govern their own communities. http://argentina.indymedia.org

Brazil: One of the few Indymedias to do proactive investigative reporting, it's truly a political force in the country, to which municipal and state governments must occasionally respond. The center column is translated into three other languages (including, incredibly, Esperanto). They have a broad network of reporters, translators, techies, and radio stations spread across the enormous country. http://brazil.indymedia.org



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Current rating: 0
27 Jul 2005
A fantastic and thought-provoking article that deserves much discussion for the network as a whole.

I just have a couple of quick points - firstly one regarding the creation of the us.indymedia.org site. The opposition to this was not anonymous. It was in fact very loud and vocal and determined.

You see, many IMC contributors and journalists are deeply involved in various No-Borders and anti-state campaigns. The creation of a site based on US political borders is seen to be counter-productive to this vital campaign. Many folk much prefer the clustering of nodes based on geographic areas (e.g. Oceania) or topical categories (e.g. biodiversity) rather than reinforcing externally imposed political groupings. But us.indy was created and it is interesting to see your analysis of it's creation through ana's eyes.

The other point is that over at Sydney IMC, for better or worse, we have no enforced concept of a "well-written article". I guess the reasoning for this stems from the realisation that not all folk have high levels of education and it is pretty vital and all people get to tell their stories. I fear that by enforcing "article quality" we may be excluding people from participating which would be a real shame....Everyone is a witness! Everyone is a journalist! Even thoes that carnt spel.

All in all, a timely article and I shall be sending folk from Sydney over to read it to see what discussion it can generate.

All the best,

sean
up with editing, up with standards
Current rating: 0
27 Jul 2005
great article.
i´m an activist, and i feel that indymedia is so important. but at the same time i always, always hesitate to recommend it to ´´normal´´ people--people that for whatever reason lack an obsessive ideological drive to spend hours wading through tons of confusing, unclear, uneven, psuedo-coverage. (no disrespect intended to the huge-hearted people i know and love at indymedia. it´s just a comment about the end phenomenom we find ourselves with)
what indymedia does is incredible, fantastic, definately something moving in the right direction. but it doesn`t even meet many of my basic news needs. i end up having to go to znet, or alternet, or even commondreams, and sometimes (embarassment) bbc, to find more analysis, or more mundane (less ´´eventful´´) coverage. so, for me at least, i have to conclude that indymedia isn`t yet the complete alternative we need if we want to escape, for example, the evil mindgames of the bbc (to name one evil).
logicaly the question to ask then is what we can do?
maybe we prefer to avoid this dicussion (choice, decision), but i think to move forward (as i conceive forward) we, as an activist community, need to arrive at a different conclusion on the issue of what kind of end result we want, accept, demand, as far as alternative news goes.
i find myself more in agreement with jennifer than sean on the issue of editing and such. i think we need to clean up indymedia a bit, still keep it open, everyone encouraged to submit. but maintain real standards, which might include rejecting submissions, and explaining what is lacking in rejected submissions. if that were coupled with workshops (as it apparently is in NY) then i don`t see any problem with such requirements. sure it´s great to hear everyone. (but i can´t hear if there´s too much noise.) but when enough of the articles are just plain shitty, i´m not going to read them for one, and maybe i won´t even look to that site after awhile for information. and certainly the ´´normal´´ people won´t survive our difficult, sometimes unpleasant and confusing activist gnetto.
it´s a cost-benifit analysis, if i can be so crass. sure we might be losing some grass rooty-ness, some people, if we have quality requirements. but we certainly lose people when the site is chocked full of half shit. and the site´s less useful to everyone when it´s shitty. if we require decent articles, and provide the means, we raise the level of everything, of the discussion, the insight, the exchange, the community, ourselves.
otherwise we continue wallowing in our own mediocrity. our own decidedly uneven, sometimes interesting, often irrelevant local alternative news hobby.
i for one suggest and urge that we do more editing, set more standards, etc.
thanks to jennifer for wresteling this problem into an articulable form
Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: "What's the Matter with Indymedia?"
Current rating: 0
27 Jul 2005
First let me say that the short time that I have been exposed to Indymedia (Midwestern style) that all in all I love it.

I must admit that I am uncomfortable with the deletions and the "hidden articles: as if we are not smart enough to judge for ourselves what we can read and not read.

If this were truly independent media, we should welcome all thought, no matter how grevious, and engage those for whom we disagree.

Sometimes I think the editors overreact to some excellent points from those who came here to learn more about us. If we are committed to the cause, what exactly are we afraid of?
Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: "What's the Matter with Indymedia?"
Current rating: 0
28 Jul 2005
"Portland has a similar policy in writing, but it sometimes seems more a formality than a reflection of practices."

This is false. At the time the author is referring to, there was no such policy in Portland regarding sexist, fascist etc posts.



"In the 1980s the city was a mecca for fascists and neonazis who beat an Ethiopian immigrant to death in 1988, and were subsequently driven out of town or underground. When I lived there in 2001, they briefly reemerged, and began using the Indymedia site to post recruitment messages for Volksfront--a white-supremacist, neonazi organization--as well as announcements of an upcoming meeting and concert featuring White Aryan Resistance leader Tom Metzger. Several antifascist organizers contacted the editorial group in an effort to have the posts hidden. Our requests were denied; we were told that we were undermining free speech by requesting censorship, and were invited to post messages in response to the fascists' recruitment efforts. To us, this was inadequate. Let the ACLU protect neonazis' free speech rights--they were using a community resource to spread their hate-based propaganda, and we wanted it stopped immediately."

This caused a number of us who were contributing to the indymedia effort in Portland to consider these issues. It was difficult keeping an open mind when these antifascist organizers were yelling at us, calling us nazi sympathizers and other such. I found them rude and offensive and seemingly unable to understand that we were not going to change a basic principle of the site right then and there at their demand. Internal discussion ensued for the next couple months. Then at one meeting a woman from the UK came to our meeting. She discussed in depth her rationale for editing and that free speech should not take precedent. I was very moved by her passionate and thoughtful arguments as were a few other people. Shortly afterwards, Portland IMC changed its policy.



"Though that level of fascist material has not been seen on the site recently, it is unclear if this is due to the nazis going back underground or due to a policy shift at Portland Indymedia."

The reason it is unclear is because the author made no effort to find out. The policy is very clear. No posts by fascist groups, or general sexist, homophobic etc posts will be allowed to stay on the site. It is shoddy journalism to give readers the impression that the Portland policy is vague, or not applied.



"According to their creative cartography, St. Louis is in the "Mississippi Delta," despite the fact that the actual delta is confined to the southernmost tip of Louisiana, and the nearest Indymedia site is based over 80 miles away in New Orleans."

From http://www.cr.nps.gov/delta/maps/map_area.htm
national parks website. Quote "The Lower Mississippi Delta Region is a large and diverse area encompassing all or parts of seven states bound together by their ties to the river. Broadly defined, the Delta region spans the entire lower portion of the river beginning in southern Illinois, covering portions of Missouri, Kentucky, and Tennessee, and including all of Arkansas, Mississippi, and Louisiana."

Seems that St. Louis is in the Mississippi delta region. I don't know where you got your fact that the delta is only at the end of the river, as Memphis is famous for being in the heart of the Mississippi delta. Having incorrect "facts" when criticizing others lack of fact checking... well, you understand.

It is at this point that it becomes clear that the author still carries a grudge against Portland IMC. This article is supposed to be about constructive criticism, not personal vendetta and demeaning sarcastic comments.

Overall, I find the article to have some useful even valuable criticism.
Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: "What's the Matter with Indymedia?"
Current rating: 0
28 Jul 2005
My main problem is with the NYC IMC, who would continually censor a very specific topic that rubs some people the wrong way, unfortunately. That is, the subject of the 9/11 Truth movement and the idea that the event of 9/11 was an inside job. This issue will not be tolerated on the NYC IMC, and that is truly sad (and yes, contrary to IMC's stated goals).
Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: "What's the Matter with Indymedia?"
Current rating: 0
28 Jul 2005
The article is really good at pointing out the strengths and weaknesses of the decision-making process. Some of the things Indymedia is trying to do involve reconciling irreconcilables -- maintaining open publishing versus maintaining quality content, encouraging dialogue versus discouraging flame wars, spontaneity versus stability, idealism versus pragmatism. Different IMCs have come down at various places on these continua, but it's not an overstatement to say that, by and large, there is a rough consensus.

I think the whole IMC network has pretty much learned that there's no room for openly racist posts on the IMC, and I think it's in the process of learning that there's no room for openly looney posts either. If NYC wants to consider "Bush ordered 9/11" stuff too looney to leave up, it's hard to argue with them, considering that it happened in their own neighborhood. I'd argue for modifying IMC dada to allow for another reason for hiding posts: "Just Too Fucking Whack." Each IMC could decide what that means in their own particular context.

@%<
Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: "What's the Matter with Indymedia?"
Current rating: 0
28 Jul 2005
As a supporter (and sometimes critic) of one of the impressive imc examples listed, I thank Sascha for distributing this piece.

Community reporting is an ideal, not a reality. Lacking institutional backing, independent media does what it can with the relatively small and somewhat isolated cadre of people who have the time and inclination to contribute to IMCs. Often the results are quite good, so this article may overstate the problem.

I always see progressive stuggles as essentially populist ones (i.e. the needs of the many versus the needs of the elite). To that end, I think the IMC that I have in my town seems to be at its best when it focuses on the community and is less effective when it tries the ivory tower approach-- talking to itself about itself and its effect on every other little thing.

The recommendation of censorship of articles, blaming the poor quality of posts on the posters, and its self-congratulatory tone would seem to be this posts' weaknesses (as well as factual misstatements, if the comments are correct). I would hate to see those facets of this piece become the "lessons learned" by my local imc.

This piece's strengths lie near its core message: we have a duty to our audience (which is the general population, a fact that is sometimes forgotten) to improve the final output.

It would seem that working somewhat within the system in order to reform it is necessary-- independent media needs some kind of "official" backing, whether it be institutional or popular. For example, Michael Moore's messages weren't any less effective for having won awards. There is a vast liberal majority waiting to read the next great populist rag/blog/website/museum/whatever...I wonder if my local IMC ever surveys the general public in order to get useful feedback on its paper/website/etc?

Be well.

:-{)]
Mark M.
Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: "What's the Matter with Indymedia?"
Current rating: 0
28 Jul 2005
One more comment on the topic of "Just Too Fucking Whack" -- what happens when a just-too-fucking-whack actually _runs_ an IMC? Check it out for yourself; it's called SF-IMC, and is the vestigial rump left from the Great San Francisco Schism, a nasty divorce in which one SF-based IMC ("Indybay") got the bulk of the energy and the other ("SF-IMC") got, among other things, nessie. Indybay was one of the ones listed as "exemplary" in the article above, and deservedly so. San Francisco -- and the IMC network as a whole -- voted with its feet.

Nessie's commented on the alternet article too; see http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2005/07/1717734_comment.php#1717741.

So here's nessie on that evil, evil Indybay: "Even a cursory perusal of their [comments] page makes it all too clear what pathetically low standards of editing they practice blah blah yammity yammity yammity."

Nessie then declares that the entire IMC network is being "pimped out" by -- why, by _us_, UC-IMC.
Evidence? Nah, he's nessie, he doesn't _do_ evidence. Evidence is for little people.

And here's nessie on the single most eee-e-evil character in the entire IMC world, the only one so eee-e-evil he needs to be called out by name: "UC-IMC also harbors in its midst the notorious Zionist mole, David Gehrig, whose vile, racist spew pollutes, degrades, and discredits the entire network. Is Indymedia not against racism? If it is not, then it is a fraud and a sham, all it's good deeds are negated and it is with out credibility, as is every IMCista who fails to even speak up. Are IMCistas not willing to rise up and take Indymedia back from the racists, the homophobes, the misogynists, the warmongers and the apologists for exploitation and ecocide? Then how dare you, with a straight face, call yourself activists for Global Justice? If you are not willing to fight for the honor and integrity of the Indymedia network, you are no Global Justice activist. You are frauds and shams."

Oooooo-eee, aren't I the evil one. And you're all frauds and shams -- at least you are if you ever bought me a beer.

Of course, I'm not the one suggesting, as nessie does, that it's your moral duty to hate 99.5% of American Jews, and that it's the IMC network's moral duty to promote that hatred.

Think I'm mischaracterizing his stance? Ask him.

I'd also note in general that it's funny how nessie tries to take credit by saying that SF-IMC follows all of the positive suggestions of the alternet article, yet it's Indybay and UCIMC -- both IMCs nessie hates deeply -- who get the article's praise, not SF-IMC. Once again, objective reality and nessievision collide painfully.

@%<
See also:
http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2005/07/1717734_comment.php#1717741
Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: "What's the Matter with Indymedia?"
Current rating: 0
28 Jul 2005
Thank you for reposting my article Sascha, I’m excited to see the debate this is generating. I have one clarification, and a few responses:

This article on Indymedia was originally published in LiP Magazine’s “Constructively Negative” Sacred Cow issue this summer, with the title "Make Media, Make Real Trouble: What's Wrong (and Right) With Indymedia." (I prefer the original title, but also trust AlterNet to edit according to their audience.) But back to LiP - please go out and buy the magazine (better yet - subscribe), support independent print media, and in doing so you’ll get to read lots of smart critique and analysis of things ranging from gender-essentialized feminism, the organic foods industrial complex, the problems with gay marriage (and gay assimilation), and more. I was very pleased that AlterNet chose to pick up the piece, particularly given its length, and I also want to be sure that LiP gets credit for publishing it first.

Thanks to Sean for the remarks on the creation of and opposition to the US Indymedia site – that definitely adds another dimension to my understanding of that. In Ana’s defense, we were discussing the matter in the context of talking about issues of anonymity, and she definitely never suggested that everyone in opposition to the site was anonymously opposing. I didn’t ask her much more about the controversy, so I take the blame for any inaccuracies and omissions on that matter, and I very much appreciate hearing more about it from you.

In response to Pdximcista, I would like to respond to a few things.

First: I am glad to get feedback from someone from Portland about the article, and I’m glad that you found some of the article useful and even valuable. I hoped that would be the case, and I also expected (and hoped) that my piece would provoke debate. I hoped it not because I hoped it would piss people off or carry on a (nonexistent) vendetta that you seem to think I have. No, I hoped it because I believe in and love and support independent media and therefore feel it my responsibility not only to publish with independent magazines, websites, and newspapers, but also to challenge those media outlets to become better, more effective, and, as I said, more threatening to the status quo. Hopefully I met that goal with this piece.

Second: Regarding the editorial policy on free speech vs. fascist speech, Pdximcista says that I made a false claim that there had been an editorial policy against fascistic postings in 2001 when Volksfront was using the site for their own organizing efforts. I made no such claim – in her/his own quotation of my piece it shows the present tense used: “Portland HAS a similar policy….” (emphasis added).

As for the antifascists who yelled at the IMC collective, I can assure Pdximcista that the people in my group were not among the yellers. But more importantly, I think it interesting that the IMC group was willing to continue allowing posts which promote much worse crimes than yelling and name calling, rather than listen to the IMC’s actual community (ie: not the boneheads but the locals who read and used the site) and recognize that this was clearly an issue that inflamed passions and that even if some of our allies were “rude,” or “offensive,” that we had some important points.

Then, there is the fact that it took a couple of months (and I don’t know how many exactly, I’m going on Pdximcista’s statement here) to assess the issue and create the policy. Let me say that again – it took months for Portland IMC to decide whether or not they wanted to ban known neonazi organizations from using their website to recruit new members and publicize fascist events. In practice, this delay meant that the boneheads were able not only to advertise for their event, but also to post news items about their victorious and successful gathering (their words, not mine), and to gloat that we antifascists had failed to prevent them from gathering. This slow response to our requests and demands also meant that many people, including not only antifascist groups but also Jews and people of color, decided to withdraw their support from Portland Indymedia, since it had shown its willingness to tolerate organized hate speech, which I personally consider much more “rude” and “offensive” than any yelling that any individual antifascist might have done.

It is also a sad (though fairly common) story that Portland Indymedia didn’t respond until someone came, all the way from another country, to talk about the same issue. Frankly, I believe that many of us locals also made “passionate and thoughtful arguments” that Pdximcista credits as the reason the Brit got through where we lowly locals were unable to. Why was the opinion of this single foreigner, from a country with a completely different analysis on and relationship to race than ours, so much more highly considered than that of many long-term Portlanders? “What’s the definition of an expert?” my buddy from that same antifascist group likes to ask, “Whoever comes from farthest away.”

Third: Pdximcista first quotes me:

"Though that level of fascist material has not been seen on the site recently, it is unclear if this is due to the nazis going back underground or due to a policy shift at Portland Indymedia."

and then says:
“The reason it is unclear is because the author made no effort to find out…. It is shoddy journalism to give readers the impression that the Portland policy is vague, or not applied.”

It is simply not true that I made no effort to find out. I didn’t need to talk to anyone in the Portland collective to do such research: My “shoddy journalism” consisted of spending countless hours reading Portland Indymedia’s archives, both around the incidents in 2001, and in the years since. I happen to know that there has been less overt nazi activity, thanks in large part to those “rude and offensive” antifascist groups doing some effective work. And in reading the hidden posts, I didn’t find a lot of nazi material, so it seems that an overall decrease in nazi activity has had much to do with the changes in the Portland IMC site.

I did find, as I mention quite clearly in the article, several posts (ostensibly) by, and by fans of, the known fascist Lyndon LaRouche. This, to me, makes it unclear if Portland Indymedia is really following its own editorial policy against fascist postings, and Pdximcista, in her/his welcome critique, notably failed to comment on these examples I offered.

Fourth: Regarding the Mississippi Delta, rather than accept the self-admittedly “broadly defined” idea of a “delta region” offered by the National Parks Service, let’s look at how Merriam-Webster defines the word “delta”: their website says a delta is (in addition to all the stuff about Greek letters and triangles) “the alluvial deposit at the mouth of a river.” Britannica.com says a delta is a “low-lying plain composed of stream-borne sediments deposited by a river at its mouth.”

Besides all of those “incorrect ‘facts’” I’m accused by Pdximcista of having in my article, let’s discuss this on another level. I am from Louisiana, lived there for 17 years, have actually visited the delta, grew up 5 miles from the Mississippi River (well north of the actual delta, so I know the difference intimately) and know people who are currently working to save that unique and beautiful bit of marshy landscape, that is triangular shaped, and lies at the river’s mouth. Friends of mine who are from the delta would be appalled to know that some people in far away Portland are trying to say that the delta extends up to Memphis. It doesn’t. The river basin, sure, of course it does, the river basin covers around 40 percent of the lower 48 states, but calling a river basin a “delta region” is obfuscating, it’s muddling, it’s confusing.

I would recommend in future redrawings of regions and borders, that instead of spending 15 hours with Wikipedia, that folks spend much less time with a good geographer, and/or someone from the region being redrawn.

And finally, though I certainly found it odd to have Pdximcista telling me what my article is “supposed to be about,” I must say that it is not “clear” that I have or ever had a grudge against Portland IMC. Despite not getting a single response from anyone in Portland Indymedia who I contacted for this article, (which, honestly, reflected my experience three and a half years ago) I think I have been quite fair in my assessment of Portland as not only having some serious problems, but also doing a lot of great work to get technical and security support to other collectives, particularly in the global South. I would have gone into greater depth on this had I received a response.

Again, thanks to all of you, especially to Pdximcista, for your feedback, criticisms, praise, and most excitingly, for discussing and debating issues I think are important to the further development of not just Indymedia, but all independent media.
Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: "What's the Matter with Indymedia?"
Current rating: 0
28 Jul 2005
Rant that appeared in LiP magazine.
AlterNet sucks. It's a corporation that wishes it were an IMC so it picks up this slam and runs with it.
AlterNet went to war with Narco News and lost.
That says it all.
Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: "What's the Matter with Indymedia?"
Current rating: 0
28 Jul 2005
I love indymedia. I send all my friends to the various sites cause nowhere else can you find the leftyloony cesspool open for all to see. Indymedia sites have done more to open the eyes of mainstream americans than even the protests and other things the bats are constantly patting themselves on the back for. The hate is there for all to see. Thank you indymedia.
Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: "What's the Matter with Indymedia?"
Current rating: 0
29 Jul 2005
"I made no such claim – in her/his own quotation of my piece it shows the present tense used: “Portland HAS a similar policy….” (emphasis added)."


That is disingenuous. The clear implication in the statement is that Portland HAS a similar policy and that it was in effect during that time. Which it was not. The statement is clearly leading the reader to believe something that was not true.





"Then, there is the fact that it took a couple of months (and I don’t know how many exactly, I’m going on Pdximcista’s statement here) to assess the issue and create the policy. Let me say that again – it took months for Portland IMC to decide whether or not they wanted to ban known neonazi organizations from using their website to recruit new members and publicize fascist events."


I agree, it is really unfortunate that it took so long. Kind of embarrassing really. There were a few people who were free speech advocates above all, and with a consensus model, everyone must agree.

You have gone on now for some paragraphs about this from 2001. The entire structure, organization, and driving vision and ideas of Portland IMC are different. It is the same IMC in name only. That that happened in 2001, does not represent how PDXIMC works now. I take back the word vendetta, it is too strong, however, that you are extensively dwelling on a past event, does indicate to me that you have a chip on the shoulder. You are still carrying your annoyance.





"It is also a sad (though fairly common) story that Portland Indymedia didn’t respond until someone came, all the way from another country, to talk about the same issue."


It really helped that she came to a meeting and spoke at length, and she did not have an immediate agenda and the tension that went with it. She also brought some perspectives that antifascist organizers in Portland had not talked about which helped sway the free speech advocates. Also, it was a cumulative effect and she was something like the last straw.




" Third: Pdximcista first quotes me:

"Though that level of fascist material has not been seen on the site recently, it is unclear if this is due to the nazis going back underground or due to a policy shift at Portland Indymedia."

and then says:
“The reason it is unclear is because the author made no effort to find out…. It is shoddy journalism to give readers the impression that the Portland policy is vague, or not applied.”

It is simply not true that I made no effort to find out. I didn’t need to talk to anyone in the Portland collective to do such research: My “shoddy journalism” consisted of spending countless hours reading Portland Indymedia’s archives, both around the incidents in 2001, and in the years since. I happen to know that there has been less overt nazi activity, thanks in large part to those “rude and offensive” antifascist groups doing some effective work. And in reading the hidden posts, I didn’t find a lot of nazi material, so it seems that an overall decrease in nazi activity has had much to do with the changes in the Portland IMC site."


If you spent countless hours reading archives you should know then that there was a distinct, even radical policy shift in a number of ways. If Volksfront were to post today, it would be gone as soon as the first person with an editorial password found it. End of story. So yes, I still call that shoddy that you leave readers with a false impression of the Portland policy.





"I did find, as I mention quite clearly in the article, several posts (ostensibly) by, and by fans of, the known fascist Lyndon LaRouche. This, to me, makes it unclear if Portland Indymedia is really following its own editorial policy against fascist postings, and Pdximcista, in her/his welcome critique, notably failed to comment on these examples I offered."


There was nothing for me to comment on. Provide some links and I'll look into it. I do not know much about Lyndon LaRouche. I found your representation of Portland misleading, and coloured by the past so I was not convinced that you were not just grasping at straws to find something to criticize in the present.

In general, with something like 500 posts a week and some volunteers watching over the site, something that should have been hidden could have been missed. I would need to see the posts to make some determination. I think you will find less sexist, racist, homophobic etc posts on Portland than most US indymedias. That of course is why I found it frustrating that you singled out Portland based on something 4 years ago.
Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: "What's the Matter with Indymedia?"
Current rating: 0
29 Jul 2005
An independent Zogby Poll showed that 50% of NYC residents believe that the U.S. government (or elements thereof) purposefully allowed 9/11 to happen. So what NYC IMC is doing, is using their editorial power to silence the views of half the people in the area.

I do not find that admirable
Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: "What's the Matter with Indymedia?"
Current rating: 0
29 Jul 2005
ok . maybe somebody is gonna make this point. i did not get all the way to thew end of the piece before i just reallyfelt i had to make a point to make.

as i amy be one of the lazy people you talk about who doesn't see journalism as my life-time goal. i am simply a common person out here in the dark trying to tell the news from the street as i se4e it.

in fact, rarely do i see enough news personally that i feel the pressing need to report. sometimes i read something or hear of some new laws that are set to go into effect that i feel folks who care may want to know about- before it's too late to do something about it hopefully.

i am also a busy mama who appreciates a chance to get my voice out there in the activist community- and a chance to hear the quiet voices out there of people who care like me.
so no i do not always edit or learn the computer tool trades i need to compete in the global news community. nor doi i want to invest that time to make it a priority. not because i'm lazy but because i have some other work to do.

in summary, please don't hand over the imc to the professionals. there are many voices out there with many things to say. hence the shit on the newswire. that's life! we don't all wanna be cnn.



i do like the idea some imc's were working on a few years where readers could rate a story and- give it a validity rating or something like that. like when somebody says " can i get a hell yeah?"
like a real conversation could be where people can refute of confirm statements made during the course of a conversation.
gehrig vs nessie
Current rating: 0
29 Jul 2005
>>suggesting, as nessie does, that it's your moral duty to hate 99.5% of American Jews, and that it's the IMC network's moral duty to promote that hatred.

>>Think I'm mischaracterizing his stance? Ask him.

You're lying, gehrig. Here's what nessie REALLY says.

http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/07/1754980_comment.php#1756942
Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: "What's the Matter with Indymedia?"
Current rating: 0
30 Jul 2005
nessie-fan (presumably he meant "nessie's _only_ fan", i.e. nessie): "You're lying, gehrig. Here's what nessie REALLY says."

Here's what nessie REALLY says about American Jews: "If gehrig cares to produce evidence the some other ethnic group is 99.5% racist, I'll condemn them, too. "

You know, there are two kinds of people in the world -- those who, when asked, "Should you hate 99.5% of American Jews?" will say no, and those who say, "Yes, by golly, you _should_ hate 99.5% of American Jews, and here's why."

And when it is pointed out to nessie that he is demonstrably in the latter category, nessie's response is that his position isn't immoral because he's telling you to hate "other racists" too, not just 99.5% of American Jews.

Oh, that makes everything _all_ better, doesn't it!

See, folks, it's okay. It's not antisemitic in nessieland to claim that virtually every Jew in America is racist and eee-evil, as long as he admits there are "a few" "decent" American Jews -- although you have to search hard to find one -- and that American Jews (the 99.5% of them who are racist and eee-eevil, that is) don't have an exclusive patent on eee-vil or racism.

Check out the whole exchange, and you'll see that I'm not making this up in the least:

http://www.indybay.org/news/hidden.php?id=1750589

And in case you're wondering just what that "vile, racist spew" I've been accused of pouring into the Indymedia network actually is, here it is: I believe that Israelis have the right to their own country. (So does, for example, Noam Chomsky.) As I've noted before, a July 2003 Zogby poll -- cosponsored by the Arab American Institute and Americans for Peace Now -- shows that not only do 99.5% of American Jews agree, but so do 95% of Arab Americans. Nessie, however, doesn't agree, and he therefore declares that this position is "vile, racist spew."

Of course, If I'd ever said anything that was actually _racist_, nessie would be waving it like a bloody shirt. But he can't, and -- because he is at heart a spiteful little child -- in his frustration he'd rather condemn 99.5% of American Jews and 95% of Arab Americans as "racist" and "evil" than admit that I am not. He's that kind of small-minded; he's that kind of immature.

Fortunately, as I noted above, he's also a self-induced irrelevancy. Compare Indybay to SF-IMC and you'll see why.

@%<
An actual agent will often point the finger at a genuine, non-collaborating and highly valued group member, claiming that he or she is the infiltrator. The same effect, known as a "snitch jacket", has been achieved by planting forged documents
Current rating: 0
30 Jul 2005
Indybay hid it:

http://www.indybay.org/news/hidden.php?id=1754980#1756942

The following post has status hidden:

"he wants you to hate 99.5% of American Jews"
by typical Zionist ploy • Friday, Jul. 29, 2005 at 7:19 PM

I want you to hate 100% of all racists, whether they are Jewish or not. If it makes a difference to you whether they are Jewish or not, you are a racist by definition. It matters to gehrig. Ergo, gehrig is a racist by definition. He would have you hate only those racists whom are not Jewish. That is because he is a Zionist.

All Zionists are racist by definition. Zionists believe that Jews should be judged by different standards than non Jews. This is precisely and exactly the same as Nazis believing that Aryans should be judged by different standards than non Aryans, or Chetniks believing that Serbs should be judged by different standards than non Serbs, or the Interahamwe believing that Hutus should be judged by different standards than non Hutus, or the KKK believing that whites should be judged by different standards than non whites. A racist is a racist is a racist. Which race doesn't matter. They're all the same, except for the Zionists. They're worse, much worse, because they have hundreds of nukes to back up their beliefs. Even Hitler wasn't that bad. All he had was conventional arms.

Zionists not only believe that Jews should be judged by different standards than non Jews, but also that Jews should have more rights, land and political power than non Jews. That is racism by definition.

Zionists not only believe that crap, they are also willing to lie, to steal, and to murder innocent women and children to prove it. That is racism personified.

It is *immoral* to help people like this distribute their propaganda. It is also highly illogical to ban the propaganda of the Nazis, the Chetniks, Interahamwe and the KKK, yet not ban propaganda by the Zionists. A racist is a racist is a racist. Which race doesn't matter.

Throw the racists out.
Is It Possible?
Current rating: 0
30 Jul 2005
Maybe Indybay considered a rant like "All Zionists are racist by definition..." to have its own implict whiff of racism?
the poor lad
Current rating: 0
30 Jul 2005
nessie-nym: "Indybay hid it."

Snicker.

Notice what he _can't_ bring himself to say, despite many opportunities: "No, I don't think you should hate 99.5% of American Jews." He just can't manage to say that. Why not? Because he thinks you _should_ hate 99.5% of American Jews, but is just too embarrassed about it to say it so plainly.

But what do you expect from someone who compares Israel _unfavorably_ to the Nazis ("Even Hitler wasn't that bad. All he had was conventional arms")? Certainly not rationality. Maybe not even a chin free from dribble.

J'accuse, nessie. Your hatred of Israel -- however principled it may initially have been -- has led you around the bend, and into a very dark place, one you would have been far wiser to avoid. Your attempts to drag the rest of the Indymedia network there will fail, because most IMCistas can distinguish reasoned criticism of Israel from your brand of overt hate-rooted bigotry.

Again, criticism of Israel or Israel's policies isn't automatically antisemitic. But when that "criticism" crosses the line and becomes an attempt to stir hatred against 99.5% of American Jews, then there is no other word to describe it. Antisemitism. J'accuse, nessie.

Incidentally, some measure of who's acting in good faith and who isn't: nessie is attacking me (my posting "pollutes, degrades, and discredits the entire network" yammity yammity yammity) on SF-IMC, a place where he as editor has expressly precluded me a chance to respond. I am conversely attacking nessie in a place where -- as his previous posts show -- he is given a chance to respond, even if only to demonstrate what an asshat^H^H^H^H^H^H swell guy he is.

In the meantime, he is unintentionally demonstrating both one of the weaknesses and one of the strengths of the IMC network. The anarchist consensus-based model of self-governance and collective independence makes it difficult (although not impossible) to Chuck-Connors out an IMC run by a psychologically damaged asshat^H^H^H^H^H^H swell guy. But at the same time, Indybay's ascension was paired with SF-IMC's spiral into irrelevance -- a spiral piloted by nessie, who found it necessary to destroy SF-IMC in order to save it, and would like to extend that favor to the rest of the network.

@%<
Alternet?????
Current rating: 0
31 Jul 2005
To use (and be used by) a money-grubbing media like Alternet - boycotted by every conscientious writer on the left because of its abusive treatment of writers (workers) even as it has a million-dollar budget and its director an exorbitant salary with upscale apartments in San Francisco and New York - to wage a "critique" of Indymedia - hated and resented by Don Hazen of Alternet for years - is just plain wrong. The writer let herself be used by those who have other motives to trash Indymedia. There are no words to describe this kind of sell-out. There are only songs...

Never Cross a Picket Line

by Billy Bragg

Five hundred men sacked for refusing
To ever cross a picket line
The voices down the ages warning
Never cross a picket line
You must never cross a picket line

Two years gone by but still they never
Ever cross a picket line
With their wives and children they stand together
Never cross a picket line
You must never cross a picket line

Look away, look away
Look away out west to San Francisco
Look away, look away
Look away down south to Sydney Harbour
Where the dockers have organised
The world's longest picket line

Technically this is an illegal strike
Never cross a picket line
But technically workers have no rights
Never cross a picket line
You must never cross a picket line

Oh, I want to live in a Brand New Britain
Never cross a picket line
Where workers rights are enshrined and written
Never cross a picket line
You must never cross a picket line

Look away, look away
Look away out west to San Diego
Look away, look away
Look away out east to far Osaka
Where the dockers have organised
The world's longest picket line

The Tories are gone but there's no improvement
Never cross a picket line
Now where is the might of the Labour movement
Never cross a picket line
You must never cross a picket line

Look away, look away
Look away down south to Auckland City
Look away, look away
Look away out west to old Vancouver
Where the dockers have organised
The world's longest picket line

Where the dockers have realised
You must never cross a picket line
Please read the rebuttal
Current rating: 0
31 Jul 2005
Here's the article . It's called.. Don't Give Me No Lip
re: portland imc
Current rating: 0
31 Jul 2005
They pretty much ban all dissenting opinions.
Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: "What's the Matter with Indymedia?"
Current rating: 0
31 Jul 2005
I'd argue for modifying IMC dada to allow for another reason for hiding posts: "Just Too Fucking Whack."

LOL! Yer killin' me here! The "Anna Clause"?
Which Side Are You On?
Current rating: 0
01 Aug 2005
Hey, Billy! I wrote a song about that too!

Which Side Are You On?

A Song by Florence Patton Reece

Come all of you good workers
Good news to you I'll tell
Of how that good old union
Has come in here to dwell

Which side are you on?
Which side are you on?
Which side are you on?
Which side are you on?

My daddy was a miner
And I'm a miner's son
And I'll stick with the union
Till every battle's won

They say in Harlan County
There are no neutrals there
You'll either be a union man
Or a thug for J.H. Blair

Oh, workers can you stand it?
Oh, tell me how you can
Will you be a lousy scab
Or will you be a man?

Don't scab for the bosses
Don't listen to their lies
Us poor folks haven't got a chance
Unless we organize

Notes:

Pete Seeger in an introduction to "Which Side Are You On?" on his record "Cant You See This System's Rotten Through And Through" says:

"Maybe the most famous song it was ever my privilege to know was the one written by Mrs Florence Reece. Her husband Sam was an organiser in that "bloody" strike in Harlan County, Kentucky in 1932.

They got word that the company gun-thugs were out to kill him, and he got out of his house, I think out the back door, just before they arrived. And Mrs Reece said they stuck their guns into the closets, into the beds, even into the piles of dirty linen. One of her two little girls started crying and one of the men said "What are you crying for? We're not after you we're after your old man"

After they had gone she felt so outraged she tore a calendar off the wall and on the back of it wrote the words and put them to the tune of an old hard-shelled Baptist hymn tune, although come to think of it the hymn tune used an old English ballad melody ... And her two little girls used to go singing it in the union halls."
Another song about scabs: The 1913 Massacre
Current rating: 0
01 Aug 2005
Florence, Billy, the rest of the assembled: Can I play a tune here, too? It's about what happens when people who gain the trust of the workers then go and sell their knowledge - information they got only because they first claimed themselves to be workers - to the owners of money. And their information becomes misinformation - something like what happened with this article - at service to the bosses and against the workers. What scabs do leads, later, to events like this one in 1913 that I sung about... The strange thing is, I never met a scab that didn't have lofty justifications for it. But in the end, the actions speak louder than their justifications, as some workers learned the hard way in 1913.... and, now, in 2005...

The 1913 Massacre

A Song by Woody Guthrie

Take a trip with me in nineteen thirteen
To Calumet, Michigan, in the copper country
I'll take you to a place called Italian Hall
Where the miners are having their big Christmas ball

I'll take you through a door, and up a high stairs
Singing and dancing is heard everywhere
I will let you shake hands with the people you see
And watch the kids dance round that big Christmas tree

You ask about work and you ask about pay
They'll tell you that they make less than a dollar a day
Working the copper claims, risking their lives
So it's fun to spend Christmas with children and wives

There's talking and laughing and songs in the air
And the spirit of Christmas is there everywhere
Before you know it, you're friends with us all
And you're dancing around and around in the hall

Well, a little girl sits down by the Christmas tree lights
To play the piano, so you gotta keep quiet
To hear all this fun you would not realize
That the copper-boss thug-men are milling outside

The copper-boss thugs stuck their heads in the door
One of them yelled and he screamed, "There's a fire!"
A lady, she hollered, "There's no such a thing!
Keep on with your party, there's no such a thing"

A few people rushed, and it was only a few
"It's only the thugs and the scabs fooling you"
A man grabbed his daughter and carried her down
But the thugs held the door and he could not get out

And then others followed, a hundred or more
But most everybody remained on the floor
The gun-thugs they laughed at their murderous joke
While the children were smothered on the stair by the door

Such a terrible sight I never did see
We carried our children back up to their tree
The scabs outside still laughed at their spree
And the children that died there were seventy-three

The piano played a slow funeral tune
And the town was lit up by a cold Christmas moon
The parents they cried and the miners they moaned
"See what your greed for money has done"

Notes

In Calumet, Michigan, in 1913 hired copper company thugs broke up a striker's Christmas party by shouting "fire", and then barring the door. In the panic that ensued, 73 children were smothered to death.
Casey Jones - The Union Scab (1912)
Current rating: 0
01 Aug 2005
Oh, so here we are again....

My turn, right?

Sing along...

- Joe Hill

Casey Jones - The Union Scab (1912)

By Joe Hill

The Workers on the S. P. line to strike sent out a call;
But Casey Jones, the engineer, he wouldn't strike at all;
His boiler it was leaking, and its drivers on the bum,
And his engine and its bearings, they were all out of plumb.

Casey Jones kept his junk pile running;
Casey Jones was working double time;
Casey Jones got a wooden medal,
For being good and faithful on the S. P. line.

The workers said to Casey: "Won't you help us win this strike?"
But Casey said: "Let me alone, you'd better take a hike."
Then some one put a bunch of railroad ties across the track,
And Casey hit the river bottom with an awful crack.

Casey Jones hit the river bottom;
Casey Jones broke his blessed spine;
Casey Jones was an Angelino,
He took a trip to heaven on the S. P. line.

When Casey Jones got up to heaven, to the Pearly Gate,
He said: "I'm Casey Jones, the guy that pulled the S. P. freight."
"You're just the man," said Peter, "our musicians went on strike;
You can get a job a'scabbing any time you like."

Casey Jones got up to heaven;
Casey Jones was doing mighty fine;
Casey Jones went scabbing on the angels,
Just like he did to workers of the S. P. line.

They got together, and they said it wasn't fair,
For Casey Jones to go around a'scabbing everywhere.
The Angels' Union No. 23, they sure were there,
And they promptly fired Casey down the Golden Stairs.

Casey Jones went to Hell a'flying;
"Casey Jones," the Devil said, "Oh fine:
Casey Jones, get busy shovelling sulphur;
That's what you get for scabbing on the S. P. Line."
Well I see we've gotten a wee bit off topic; re: Lip Article
Current rating: 0
01 Aug 2005
I don’t mean to get off the folk songs, but I’m returning to the topic of the article.

I am really glad to see this debate out there, and even though Ms. Whitney's article is a little scattered, these are things that we are long overdue talking about in the IMC network. Having worked for three IMCs, one of which I helped start, let me say that I wouldn't work for another IMC in the first world unless I was paid. Today I work for KPFA in the Pacifica network, and I'm greatly relieved at the change. One word sums up what I prefer most about KPFA: structure.

I find it ironic that NYC Indymedia and Indybay.org are two of the IMCs that Whitney points out as doing things well, and I would note that Whitney hasn't worked with the NYC Indymedia crew. There couldn't be two more different processes than the creation of Faultlines, the paper of Indybay.org, and the Indypendent.

I've worked for both. And let me say that there are some great, really intelligent, hard working, and creative people working on both. The Indypendent is with good reason the best Indymedia product I've seen, and the only one that seems to reach a mass audience. And Faultlines publishes some amazing articles, and is one of the smartest media sources in the San Francisco Bay area. I was usually (with notable exceptions) very proud of Faultlines' content.

Yes, the Indypendent puts out a really sharp, professional product. But I have to laugh about the editors "working closely" with authors. What that meant when I worked at NYC Indymedia is that you had no control whatsoever over what you wrote for the Indypendent. When working there I was told by Arun Gupta, who was _the_ acting editor in chief of the Indypendent, to use a particular source when working on a story, and then when I refuse, I was told by not only Arun but the rest of the Indypendent editors that "this is a collective, you have to do as we say". This is indicative of how the Indypendent was run when I was there; a very Bolshevik model, and soft-spoken John Tarleton is just as much a part of this as is AK Gupta. Other fun memories from the Indypendent: being yelled at in the office "You hate Lenin", and watching as anarchist was habitually used as an insult. It really didn't matter how much I liked the product.

And yet, I found I was more frustrated working for Faultlines. When I proposed including the most basic of editorial guidelines (citing sources for stories), and other ideas to improve the quality of the articles and the paper in general, so that we could move beyond the activist ghetto to a paper that has some mass appeal (like the Indypendent), the ideas were consistently blocked and it was suggested that I was being elitist.

Which is worse?

The Indypendent uses the absence of structure to run things (at least when I was there in spring of 2004) by three talented, hard working, very autocratic individuals. Everything in that paper went through the hands of AK Gupta, who was supposed to be just another collective member but was in fact the dictator of the paper. Yet because he had no title, he was not really accountable.

Faultlines, on the other hand, has some talented people, but they are so busy being oppositional to professional media that it ends up a glorified activist zine, which appears to be what some people at Faultlines want. These people may not know the first thing about editing or even journalism, or even care, but would block anyone else from stepping into roles which they see as oppressive. So even though they may have lacked these skills, they wanted to decide how to run things. That is bad for quality. I found myself in a lot of semi-productive meetings in small dirty rooms, and some people took on much more work than they should have but were not afforded any more respect or decision making abilities, because we were all equal collective members. So they burned out.

When I work at KPFA, I have a clear job title and tasks. I am a reporter. I have an anchor who I report to. I can refuse stories if I want (I did my first day), and my anchor (who is also my editor) edits my stories but treats me with respect and never tells me I have to quote anyone. If there is a problem there is a structure that I can interact with. No one can hide behind the fact that they are just another member of the collective. In general I have plenty of autonomy and everything runs smoothly, with a minimum of endless meetings and other time-wasting bullshit. Pacifica may have larger problems, but in my mind they are a model for Indymedia to learn from; structure without oppression, and both bottom up and top down decision making simultaneously, with rights and responsibilities clearly delineated.

My experience is that absence of structure can be much more oppressive and limiting than structure is. And I think until Indymedia solves some of these issues around absence of structure (maybe some IMCs have), then they will be plauged with all of these problems and worse.
Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: "What's the Matter with Indymedia?"
Current rating: 0
01 Aug 2005
The comment section seems to have veered in several different directions.

I read with interest the exchange between Gehrig and Nessie. I'm glad I've read it coming from the horses mouth, so to speak, because I'm tired of the snide remarks that pop up randomly all over indymedia about nessie. Until now, I really haven't known what to believe about the situation. Thanks for clearing up a few things for me though, David Gehrig.

It appears you persist in making personal attacks on others, presumably nessie and those you consider "too whacked out." That's too bad. It takes all kinds of people to make the world go round. Yesterday's conspiracy theorist is Today's Howard Zinn.

David, you also claim that nessie is a antisemite and the evidence you provide in defense of that claim is an obvious logical fallacy.

"Of course, I'm not the one suggesting, as nessie does, that it's your moral duty to hate 99.5% of American Jews, and that it's the IMC network's moral duty to promote that hatred."

I read the exchange that you are referring to and it says no such thing, neither does it insinuate anything negative about people based on their ethnicity or religion.

It's easy to point the finger to how you feel others are not positively contributing to a positive dynamic within the indymedia network, but until you're willing to live by the same standards that you project onto others, the problems will continue to persist.
Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: "What's the Matter with Indymedia?"
Current rating: 0
01 Aug 2005
Let's throw this question open, folks.

If, on the subject of American Jews, nessie says "If gehrig cares to produce evidence the some other ethnic group is 99.5% racist, I'll condemn them, too," is it really weird science to conclude that he's condemning 99.5% of American Jews as racist?

Or does the word "too" mean something different to nessie than the rest of us?

@%<
Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: "What's the Matter with Indymedia?"
Current rating: 0
01 Aug 2005
Let's boil it down to the basics. Nessie sez:

(1) Hate racists.

(2) Anyone who says Israel has the right to exist is a racist.

He also accepts the Zogby poll results of July 2003 that 99.5% of American Jews believe Israel has a right to exist.

When it's that simple, you can either do the math or make excuses for not doing the math.

@%<
Let's clear some things up about NYC Indymedia
Current rating: 0
01 Aug 2005
I'm a member of the Indypendent collective. Thanks to Jennifer for her compliments on our editing.
First, Arun Gupta is NOT the dictator of NY IMC. He's got a bigger role than most people, but that's because he puts more time and energy into the paper. It's absolutely ridiculous to say every word in the paper goes through him--he'd have to be three people. We edit collectively, with each person taking on a handful of stories, and each story getting edited twice.
Second, we should be so lucky as to have a full "paid staff." I could quit my day job and do some real reporting. The paid staff is one or two underpaid people.
Third, we delete 9/11 conspiracy theory posts because as with conspiracy theory in general, they are just too fucking whack--and often too right-wing or anti-Semitic--to annoy our readers with. A fucking huge plane hit the building and caught fire as temperatures hot enough to bend steel, do you really think Bush agents planted explosives? Calling it the "9/11 Truth Movement" is as much a misleading advertising slogan as the "Healthy Forests Act" or "Operation Iraqi Freedom."
Portland has one of the better IMC sites, but all the conspiracy crap on it is really annoying, and often borderline fascist. Baltimore IMC also has a problem with anti-Semitic posts.

P.S. The Mississippi Delta as a physical dirt-deposited-by-the-river place is confined to southern Louisiana. The Mississippi Delta as a sociological place comprises Memphis, northwest Mississippi, and parts of Arkansas and Louisiana, as any knowledgeable blues fan can tell you. St. Louis is a bit of a stretch, but not that far off. Maybe PDX IMC should call it "Mississippi Valley."
New York part of the "Great North Woods"? Most of the trees here are in vacant lots!
Re: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: "What's the Matter with Indymedia?"
Current rating: 0
01 Aug 2005
I'm the editor of LiP, and I asked Jen Whitney to write this piece for LIP's "Constructively Negative" Sacred Cows issue. I can tell you that she had serious c